Frank Lucas–Who is the “American Gangster?”
An Interview with Journalist Ron Chepesiuk,
Co-author of Superfly: The True, Untold Story of Frank Lucas, American Gangster
Ron Chepesiuk
Q) Was Frank Lucas the biggest drug dealer in Harlem in the 1970s?
A) Lucas was a big drug dealer in Harlem during the 1970s, but he cannot boast with certainty, as he and his publicists have, that he was the biggest one. At the time, the heroin trade was exploding; the French Connection, fragmenting; and the La Cosa Nostra’s hold on the drug trade, loosening. This opened the drug trade for the rise of several big-time black drug dealers, including Nicky Barnes, Frank Matthews, Robert Stepeney, Harold “Hollywood” Munger, the black Dutch Schultz and Zack Robinson, among others. Each had their time in the criminal sun. So saying one was the biggest of all is like trying to identify who is the greatest baseball player of all time or who is the greatest actor. Any claim will be subject to debate.
Q) Did Frank Lucas ever go to Southeast Asia?
A)Yes, he did, but much later that he claims he did. In an interview Lucas told me he went to Asia in 1969 and 1970. Ike Atkinson, who operated a big heroin trafficking ring from Bangkok to the U.S. from the mid 1960s to the mid 1970s, says Frank did not come to Asia until 1973. I have interviewed DEA agents who were working in Bangkok in the early 1970s and they did not hear of Frank Lucas, nor did they recall having any intelligence information about him. If Lucas was as big as he said he was in Southeast Asia, you figure he would have been on the DEA radar screen. In 1969 or 1970, the La Cosa Nostra dominated the French Connection, controlling about 95 percent of the heroin drug trade. So why would Lucas take risks, go to a foreign environment and try to develop a completely new system of drug distribution?
Q) Did Frank Lucas have a heroin connection in Southeast Asia through Ike Atkinson?
A) According to Atkinson he did and I tend to believe him. After Ike’s partner, Herman Jackson, was busted in ’72 or ‘73, Ike needed a new partner in the U.S, and so he entered into business arrangement with Lucas. Lucas’ claim that he was the one who initiated and developed the Asian heroin connection is false. That dubious distinction goes to Ike Atkinson.
Q) Did Lucas ever put out a contract on Nicky Barnes?
A) According to press and law enforcement reports, Lucas did put a contract on Frank Barnes in 1975 while Frank was incarcerated in New York’s Metropolitan Correction Center. But here we are more than three decades later and the bad blood between the two old drug kingpins is still there. If they ever meet again and get a chance to talk, let’s be sure they won’t be near any lethal weapons.
Q) Did Frank Lucas work for Bumpy Johnson?
A) Lucas says he did and he has made the Bumpy connection a big part of his personal story. I’ve talked to some retired law enforcement officials who knew Bumpy Johnson during the 1950s and 1960s and they can’t recall ever seeing, meeting or hearing of Lucas. I’m pretty sure Lucas worked for Johnson in some capacity, but at this point of time, we have no way of verifying the extent of that relationship.
Q) Did Lucas shoot a big Harlem drug dealer in middle of day?
A) You are referring to Tango, the 270-pound Harlem bully, whom Lucas has said looked like “Mr. Clean.” Frank Lucas says he did kill Tango and I’m sure the incident will be included in the movie. I have not found any source who can verify that the incident happened. It’s very odd, though, that Lucas would admit to murdering a dude named ‘Tango” but refuse to talk about any of the other, readily identifiable individuals he is accused of committing.
Q) How was Lucas busted?
A) Frank was busted in late January 1975. The authorities raided his home in Teaneck, New Jersey, using information supplied by two busted members of the Gambino crime family. I describe this incident in detail in my book, “Superfly: the True, Untold Story of Frank Lucas, American Gangster.” The bust led to a 40-year conviction and was the beginning of the end of Lucas’ big-time criminal career.
Q) Was Frank Lucas a snitch?
A) Yes, he was, although Lucas has refused to admit it. He wants to make the money and get all the glory that comes with being the subject of a Hollywood film, while still being The Man on the street who rappers rap rapturously about. Tough to do when you have violated the Code of the Streets—“ You do the crime, you do the time (and keep your mouth shut).”
Q) Did he cooperate and testify?
A) In responding to the charge of being a snitch, Frank sounds a lot like Bill Clinton in his impeachment hearings when he tried to parse the word “is”. Lucas claims he is not really a snitch because he never took the stand. But he did—in the trial of drug dealer Leroy Butler. His testimony may have led to the arrest and conviction of perhaps 80 to a 100 people, or more.
Q) Did he get busted again?
A) He got busted in 1984 for trying to sell one ounce of heroin for a kilo of cocaine and $13,000. At the trial, Lucas claimed he was still an informant working undercover for the DEA. The problem—no one in the DEA knew anything about Frank’s alleged undercover work, and the jury didn’t buy his story. You won’t see that aspect of Lucas’ story in the movie.
Q) Why did Hollywood decide to do a movie about him and not Nicky Barnes or Frank Mathews?
A) Pure luck. Frank was living in obscurity in New Jersey when Mark Jacobson penned that 2000 New York magazine article about him. If someone in Hollywood had not been looking for the subject of a good script and had not spotted that article, and if Denzel had not agreed to play his character, Frank would, no doubt, still be history, and not on the verge of being transformed into a Hollywood legend.
Q) Who do you think was the Black Godfather of the era?
A) Nicky Barnes. No black drug dealer from the 1970s had a bigger persona. Like the song, Nicky was “Bad, Bad Leroy Brown.” No one from that era, moreover, has a bigger presence in the gangsta culture of today than Mr. Untouchable. Ironically, that may change with the movie “American Gangster” and Lucas’ explosion on the popular scene.
Q) Has Lucas read Nicky’s autobiography, “Mr. Untouchable”?
A)I‘m sure he is aware of the book. Lucas is a control freak, who likes to be on top of things. He may have had somebody read the book to him, though. One law enforcement official whom I interviewed in investigating Frank Lucas believes he may be functionally illiterate. That may have been true at one time, but I’m sure it must have changed. Being able to count all the money you’re making from your resurrection is a good incentive to become literate.
Ron Chepesiuk is the co-author of Superfly: The True, Untold Story of Frank Lucas, American Gangster, (www.franklucasamericangangster.com/) and the author of Gangsters of Harlem, (www.gangstersofharlem.com) Drug Lords: the Rise and Fall of the Cali Cartel (www.ronchepesiuk.com/) and the just released Black Gangsters of Chicago (www.blackgangstersofchicago.com/).
[…] Kim Lavine wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptI describe this incident in detail in my book, “Superfly: the True, Untold Story of Frank Lucas, American Gangster.” The bust led to a 40-year conviction and was the beginning of the end of Lucas’ big-time criminal career. … […]
Pingback by Hollywood » Frank Lucas - Who is the “American Gangster?” — October 13, 2007 @ 8:21 pm
[…] C. Leigh Purtill wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptThis opened the drug trade for the rise of several big-time black drug dealers, including Nicky Barnes, Frank Matthews, Robert Stepeney, Harold “Hollywood” Munger, the black Dutch Schultz and Zack Robinson, among others. … […]
Pingback by Hollywood » Frank Lucas - Who is the “American Gangster?” — October 13, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
Is Frank Lucas still alive?
Comment by Michelle — October 25, 2007 @ 8:51 am
THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFORMATION.I AM FROM BROOKLYN AND I NEVER HEARD OF FRANK LUCAS. WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER GROWING IN BROOKLYN I HEARD A LOT ABOUT NICKY BARNS. ITS SAD HOLLYWOOD NEVER MADE A MOVIE ABOUT HIM……….THANKS AGAIN.
Comment by curtis l maye — October 25, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
I THINK ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE HATING ON FRANK LUCAS CAUSE HE OUT SMARTED EVERYONE FOR SO LONG. YOU HATE TO ADMIT HE WAS A SMART BLACK MAN.
Comment by LANA — October 26, 2007 @ 3:17 pm
Lana,
No one is hating on Frank Lucas - the facts are just the facts. I have met Frank and actually think Denzel did him a disservice in American Gangster. He took all the fun out of his personality. Watch the films and judge for yourself. But this is not a white and black thing. Nicky is black and Mr. Untouchable clearly shows him to be a very smart 9though misguided) black man.
Comment by Mary-Jane — October 28, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
everyone has their story about what went on back in the sixties and the seventies. the situation varies from state to state. i’m from chicago and i’m in the process in writing a book about my father and my brother. the things that they were able to do back then no one could do today unless you had certain people on your side. kbandy11
Comment by kbandy — October 30, 2007 @ 4:03 am
Wasn’t Nicky Barnes the real snitch?
He snitched on his own crew all over some woman.
Comment by GWILL — October 30, 2007 @ 8:30 am
American Gangster was an excellent portrayal of F. Lucas and the actual destruction he caused in the different burroughs. Even though times have changed from that era to today, there are still F. Lucas’s out there, and hopefully they will see this movie and decide to turn. And on the question about has Lucas and Barnes spoken, the have. They even talked about the “hit”. Lucas told Barnes he would never say anything like that. And yes Lucas is alive he is 77 or 78 years old.
Comment by sue — October 30, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
Just one more scum bag and Hollwood makes it all romantic, Denzel should be ashamed
Comment by Doug — October 30, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
The only thing that gets me is …how can people know now what they did not know then about Frarnk Lucas. He was right under everyone’s nose (POLICE — DEA — FBI–) they did not go after him until someone gave the POLICE a name. I guess what I am saying –DEA stated: did not hear about him when traveled to Asia back then but also New York Policce was not looking for him either because THEY did not know.
Comment by mic — October 30, 2007 @ 6:55 pm
Stop hating on Lusas and Washington.
Comment by Anonymous — November 1, 2007 @ 12:46 am
only thing I can say if he did not wear that big fur coat and sat in the second row he would have not got busted!
Comment by bduv — November 1, 2007 @ 10:12 pm
Hollywood strikes again, Lets make a movie about a piece of garbage who poisoned his own people and destroyed a city and murderd people. But he was a nice guy, he bought his mother a big white house. Leave it up to hollywood to make a hero out of a dirtbag. Lets make a movie about the real hero’s, they are fighting a war.
Comment by usnret — November 2, 2007 @ 8:59 am
It was just a movie. Entertaining. That’s what movies are supposed to do. It did it’s job well. It was not a documentary; only based on a man. Ease up
Comment by shelly — November 2, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
I do not think this movie “idolizes” this parisite. It DOES show how Blacks are constantly underestimated by whites. No one was looking for Frank because they did not think that Blacks were smart enough to pull off an operation that big.
the REAL question is this….WHO is supplying the drugs in Black communities now???
Comment by JamMaster — November 3, 2007 @ 11:49 pm
I agree that would should not look up to a person who is a criminal…but I beleive it is important for movie’s like this to be made…in order to educate and inform the public of the dangers and consequences when one chooses this lifestyle. Some may think Mr. Lucus lived the great life…but I think by the time it was all said and done we can agree it was a waste…and though he destroyed many lives in the process with his product, the reality is that if it was not hime there were plenty of others. To answer the question of who is supplying the drugs in Black communities…drugs are not prejudice…people of all walks of life are using and abusing…it is a choice…a very bad choice …We need to ask why are they making them. Pray for them all…cause that was the real story…the mom on the bed dead with the baby sitting next to her…That is some sad reality.
Comment by rj — November 4, 2007 @ 3:35 am
I think this man is being somewhat glorified. What he did was wrong and he didn’t even have a conscience in doing it. Anytime you are that involved with the destruction of human lives and can sit in a church house regularly with no intention to repent or have any convictions, there is a problem. I wonder what God he was serving. God is a god of love, not of hate and murder or drugs. As far a him being smart, I beg to differ. He out smarted not the white people but black people. They were the victums dying on the streets.
Comment by Anonymous — November 5, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
Hey, either go watch the movie and be entertained or don’t watch it and shut up!!! Truth be told, you never know why people do the things that they do. True, wrong is wrong and there is no wrong better than the next. People have all this anamosity toward Frank Lucas, T.I, Micheal Vick and so on. BUT lets focus on what’s really important….CAN anybody tell me what the war, out soilders are dying for, is All about. Life is life and I really beleive history has a lot to do with why there was and still are so many Frank Lucas in this great country we call America. AND for the last comment, the KKK murdered, hung and burned black people at church…..Come on, lets keep it REAL!!!
Comment by Keepin it REAL — November 5, 2007 @ 9:52 pm
he a real,GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGg
Comment by Anonymous — November 8, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
moives dont glorify , people watching them do, nobody usually boasts until its over, and no one can confirm things not recorded, usa loves a bad guy, entertainment and life philosophy are not 1
Comment by djc — November 8, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
I’m from goldsboro Nc home of ike akinson do you have more information on him
919-221-2368
Comment by Altina — November 8, 2007 @ 7:17 pm
Hello everyone,
You talk about drugs killing people.
Cigerette been killing people for a long time and its a drug but it legal.
No this movie shows a blackmen making money off drugs that everyone was
selling. If people stop doing the drugs then the drugs will go away.
No one is force to buy drugs. It’s addiction and those people need help.
What the movie shows were that no one think a blackman could make this much
money in a smart way of selling his product. The sad thing is the white guys was
was selling product too. It was about moving up and having nice things too.
No matter what the cost an the movie showed at the end he still paid the price for
breaking the law. It’s funny because the law change for the white people when it
came to sell liquer and change again for sell tabacco but it hasn’t change for doing other drug except when the government approved ones. Think about it achol kills so do cig. kills.
most drug are bad when take it wrong.
Just think about it.
Comment by Chambliss40 — November 13, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Ron, some of what Frank says is true and some is not. How do I know? Hee, hee, just mention my name to Frank. I’m the one who kept him alive while he was incarcerated in the MCC in 79 and 80. In fact I also kept Steve Rubell and Ian Scragher alive..eg., I kept the Italians off of Frank and I kept the AWB off of Steve and Ian. The Italians hated Frank’s guts but they had to go through me. I was 5′7″ and 145 at the time and I could have easily beatern Duran with one hand (when I wasn’t high). Think I’m jiving, check with Frank or the U.S. Marshal Service. I sent John Tully (the Campisi Family hitman) to the hospital about fucking with Frank. In fact, the 1980 NY Post Article About Drug Lord lives it up at MCC is about Frank and myself…Fighting was my business! And as for Steve and Ian..Ha, Go downstairs to the Southern District’s Marshal’s Office and ask them about the time that I sent an AWB member to the hospital for plastic surgery. He had a knife and I hit him with one right hand..because he was fuicking with Steve and Ian. In fact, ask Ian (the coward motherfucker) who saved his ass. As for Ike, Man what a man! Such a nice guy…I’ve never heard him raise his voice. I’m so glad that he just was released to the halfway house. I talked with him many times at Tere Haute and he never bragged or had anything bad to say about anyone…what a gentleman! I could have put Frank away for life back in 1980, when Sterling Johnson sent his men down to interview me in Texarcana, but I had nothing to tell them against Frank. He always treated me right and made sure that I had what I needed. In fact, insofar as black people are concerned, Frank never had many enemies. I wasn’t gonna stab him in the back then and I wouldn’t do it now. Frank played the game and he came out just a little ahead. As for me, I can still knock a motherfucker out at 52. If you talk to Frank, give him my number (718) 679-6679). One last thing, there is an unpublished piece out entitled “The Untaming of the Ivory Gorilla.” You need to read that piece, chief, that will tell you the story of both Franks, Leroy, myself, Leon Aikens (the real king of Harlem, and a total gentleman). I don’t have a copy, but you can get one from Mr Alexander Faulkner #06851-041. He’s incarcerated at the federal FCI in Butner NC. I don’t have the address, but you can get it from the federall inmate locator on your computer..just hit BOP. Now, after you read that above-mentioned piece, you’ll want to come see me, because you’ll want to know just who the hell I am (Ike has a copy, but he probably won’t part with it). I’ve already got the title for your next book, chief, “The Last Great American Bank Robber.” Fuck Chaz Williams, American Ganster my ass. Later Chief.
Comment by Kenny Payton — November 21, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
We have to admit that we are all fascinated some how by these characters; bad or good it gets our attention and we run to the movie theatres spend money& book stores to purchase the books. Why do we do this? I don’t know. I’m a black man and I found myself wanting the guy to get off free instead of getting caught, not because he was black it’s just because he made so much money and seemed so innovative and ruthless at the time. So I feel as if the problem is “greed” and “violence” it has been our culture since America was founded and this will never change. Like probabbly 60 to 70% of the people that went to that movie I’m a middle class man with a nice home and have never done drugs or ran with a gang but I waited in line in my white neighborhood (San Clemente, CA.) to see this movie. I was not standing in the ghetto with a bunch of black guys waiting to feel some source of pride for a brotha who sold drugs. There is always going to be drugs,violence,murders,gangs,ect…because we crave it. There is always going to be a Frank Lucas because it’s our culture and we as Americans breed this culture and bias thinking. There is always going to be prejudice, hate and a love for violence in the good old U.S.A…..That’s a fact…Roosevelt Cheek
Comment by Roosevelt Cheek — November 25, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
hello every one i recon that amercan gangster is the best film of the year it is so detailed about how he gets arrested the only thing which would of made the film better would be if they put more facts in it about nickys life and i wish they had more facts about frank lucas this fill is the most fasinating film i have ever seen in my how entire life the film allways keeps you thinking whats going to happen next thats how good the film is i give a ratting of 1 star 1star 1star 1star 1star 1star 1star 1star 1star 1star 1star
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